Human-Centered AI in L&D: A Conversation with Jeff Hrusko

00:00:10 RK Prasad

Today's episode is titled Human Centered AI in L&D Building training that people actually use and remember.

00:00:11 RK Prasad

Welcome to the e Learning Champion podcast.

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I'm delighted to have Jeff Ruscoe with us today.

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Jeff is a seasoned L&D leader with over 15 years of experience building high impact learning functions in major organizations, including Prudential Financial and Pioneer.

00:00:30 RK Prasad

He also served as the chief product officer at the microlearning platform company MaxLearn and is the founder of the Compliance Creed.

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Jeff is known for his deeply human centered philosophy.

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People don't fail to learn because they lack intelligence.

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They fail because training forget forgets that they are human.

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In this conversation, we will explore how to combine.

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Powerful AI tools with truly human first designed to create learning that drives real behavioral change and measurable business results.

00:01:10 RK Prasad

Jeff, a warm welcome to the show.

00:01:14 RK Prasad

Thank you, RK.

00:01:15 Jeff Hrusko

Thank you so much.

00:01:17 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, thank you and thank you so much for inviting me.

00:01:22 RK Prasad

No, it's the privilege is all ours because.

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For all the years, I know you that your philosophy of training and your philosophy of measuring results have deeply like influenced my own thinking on those lines.

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And I also had the pleasure of working with you during the developing of the product of Max Learn so I could.

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Experience first hand the depth of your knowledge.

00:02:00 RK Prasad

So as an introductory question, I would like to ask you, Jeff, you have a very clear philosophy as far as learning is concerned.

00:02:15 RK Prasad

People don't fail to learn because they lack intelligence, they fail to learn because training forgets they are human.

00:02:21 RK Prasad

What experiences across your career led you to this belief?

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And how has it shaped the way you design and lead learning programs?

00:02:32 Jeff Hrusko

Sure.

00:02:32 Jeff Hrusko

And I think we've all been there, even as a child, if you were in the back of the room and in algebra, and if that wasn't your thing, like and you had an instructor or a teacher that was just kind of going through the motions, all of us sort of know what bad training looks like.

00:02:55 Jeff Hrusko

And luckily, the fundamentals of good training or good education don't change.

00:03:01 Jeff Hrusko

The fundamentals are have been there from the beginning.

00:03:05 Jeff Hrusko

What we need to know now is how to apply them more in this new world.

00:03:10 Jeff Hrusko

But when you really see, I remember a textbook case early in my career.

00:03:18 Jeff Hrusko

It was a very interesting topic, which I totally forgot.

00:03:21 Jeff Hrusko

But at the time, I remember thinking it was an interesting topic.

00:03:24 Jeff Hrusko

I was in Booz Allen Hamilton, this consultancy, this world leading expert was came to talk about this very interesting topic, which I don't remember.

00:03:34 Jeff Hrusko

And the reason I don't remember is he came in with a stack like this of PowerPoints printed out.

00:03:42 Jeff Hrusko

On the screen, he showed and I think a lot of us have been here the same PowerPoints and the PowerPoints were like Dostoevsky or War and Peace, heavy text just and he was going through.

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And I remember looking at reading, not looking at us, reading it.

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You could imagine.

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I mean, even now it's like, I don't even want to hear the story.

00:04:04 Jeff Hrusko

The story is boring.

00:04:06 Jeff Hrusko

The training was worse and it was a topic again.

00:04:08 Jeff Hrusko

So and I remember watching.

00:04:11 Jeff Hrusko

Again, this guy turning the page and all my colleagues are there and some of the senior managers are there and all these bigwigs are there.

00:04:19 Jeff Hrusko

And I watched them slip away as a guy picking up there.

00:04:26 Jeff Hrusko

This is in the day of BlackBerry walk out.

00:04:32 Jeff Hrusko

Again, it was like me and 2 other junior people and the fellow finally.

00:04:36 Jeff Hrusko

And I felt so bad for this guy, but I felt worse for us.

00:04:40 Jeff Hrusko

So that's an extreme example, but especially with a lot of either compliance or regulatory choired training, people forget that humans need to take this.

00:04:57 Jeff Hrusko

And I call this one trouble that people get in the terms and conditions.

00:05:03 Jeff Hrusko

Ply meaning if you ever saw the Apple terms, just pick on Apple on anybody, but like the Apple terms and conditions and everywhere now you click on something, it gives you 5 pages and then at the bottom you say I have read everything.

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This is wonder, wonderful.

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I understand it.

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Just let me move on with my life again because right we are for.

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It is not built for people.

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It is built for.

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Lawyers, it's built for cover your butts, it's not built for human consumption.

00:05:37 Jeff Hrusko

So that's always been one of the fundamental philosophies of mine.

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Remember, people have to take this, right?

00:05:49 Jeff Hrusko

And then along with that is respecting their time and.

00:05:54 Jeff Hrusko

And this is and all the trainers out there will probably hear or remember of the WIFM, what's in it for me?

00:06:03 Jeff Hrusko

And along those lines, one of the first things you need to do is tell people what is the value of taking this?

00:06:11 Jeff Hrusko

What is the outcome you should expect from this learning?

00:06:15 Jeff Hrusko

So you kind of make them a promise there.

00:06:18 Jeff Hrusko

The promise is I'm going to respect your time.

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You're going to learn something, you're going to be able to apply this to something in your job that will help you help the company.

00:06:30 Jeff Hrusko

And then you have to follow through on that promise at the end, so they can say, oh, this happened.

00:06:37 Jeff Hrusko

So it's very kind of simple.

00:06:40 Jeff Hrusko

Always remember that a person's taking this.

00:06:43 Jeff Hrusko

When I was a fancy free in college, I took a creative writing class and.

00:06:51 Jeff Hrusko

College writing is the worst high school, you know, everybody thinks they're these great writers and you're putting all this flourish in there.

00:07:00 Jeff Hrusko

And I remember the professor, who I love, said you need to kill your darlings.

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I love my darlings.

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And the darlings are any of that flourish.

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Any of anything in the story that doesn't support the story, that doesn't support the learning.

00:07:19 Jeff Hrusko

So those.

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Coming with that mindset of what value am I offering?

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Cutting out anything that doesn't support that value, support that outcome.

00:07:31 Jeff Hrusko

And then the 3rd element to it is active.

00:07:35 Jeff Hrusko

And that's where the actual instructional design comes in.

00:07:39 Jeff Hrusko

This is all just the price of admission.

00:07:41 Jeff Hrusko

And when you get to the instructional designs, like how do you chunk out this information, how do you build upon this information, how do you make it an active learning experience so they can make new neural connections no matter what this is, if you teach them how to apply it and learn from them too.

00:08:04 Jeff Hrusko

So that's it in a nutshell.

00:08:06 Jeff Hrusko

My rule number one, I shorten it to don't punish the user.

00:08:10 RK Prasad

Right.

00:08:12 RK Prasad

Yes, as you said, I personally have gone through such experiences as you did.

00:08:20 RK Prasad

And I do share your philosophy that we forget the human being and we try to cater to some other audience for some other purpose.

00:08:34 RK Prasad

I want to ask a related question.

00:08:38 RK Prasad

That as L&D professionals, at least theoretically, we should all be sharing this philosophy, right?

00:08:49 RK Prasad

Because we do know, if not in depth, at least the fundamentals of learning theory, what makes learning effective, your stuff like motivation and stimulus.

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and.

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Adult learning principles and all this these studies.

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One thing is that most of these instructional designers and L&D managers they seem to have forgotten the basic philosophy.

00:09:25 RK Prasad

But I am not very bothered there.

00:09:27 RK Prasad

I want to ask you that in most of the classroom training which happens in corporates.

00:09:34 RK Prasad

Is hived off to the so called subject matter experts, right?

00:09:40 Jeff Hrusko

What?

00:09:40 Jeff Hrusko

I'm sorry.

00:09:42 RK Prasad

Subject matter experts, subject matter experts, the SMEs as they are called.

00:09:48 RK Prasad

Now these guys are experts in their own domains.

00:09:52 RK Prasad

Maybe engineering, maybe sales, maybe whatever.

00:09:57 RK Prasad

And they come with a ton of knowledge with absolutely zero concept of how learning takes place.

00:10:07 RK Prasad

So do you think that, do you think corporates are missing a very large point there and they are equating a presentation to a training?

00:10:26 RK Prasad

And just forgetting about the objective.

00:10:31 RK Prasad

What do you think about that?

00:10:33 Jeff Hrusko

Absolutely.

00:10:34 Jeff Hrusko

Well, a couple different things to unpack there.

00:10:36 Jeff Hrusko

And one thing before I answer this is any instructional designer or a training development leader that's worth their soul knows these things, right?

00:10:47 Jeff Hrusko

We're talking about mom and apple pie and everything.

00:10:50 Jeff Hrusko

I think what happens is.

00:10:53 Jeff Hrusko

Sometimes it is a struggle because the client, internal or external, has a vision of what they want.

00:11:01 Jeff Hrusko

So we need training for this and it needs to have this caboose and this, and this, this.

00:11:07 Jeff Hrusko

So one of the tougher things to learn is to be able to work with your internal or external customer and sometimes not give them what they want as they first envision it.

00:11:23 Jeff Hrusko

And it's a tough thing.

00:11:25 Jeff Hrusko

And with that, what you want to do or what I find is building trust first.

00:11:34 Jeff Hrusko

Listen and don't say no, this is not a training thing.

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Now listen.

00:11:37 Jeff Hrusko

Ah, OK, so you want to have this training on this process and you want to get OK, tell me more about that.

00:11:47 Jeff Hrusko

What problem are we trying to solve?

00:11:51 Jeff Hrusko

That's a good question to ask.

00:11:52 Jeff Hrusko

It always is, because it makes you and then think.

00:11:55 Jeff Hrusko

And it's not a question of like, no, you're saying, what are we trying to solve here?

00:12:00 Jeff Hrusko

OK, we're all trying to solve, you know, the statistics on this process now are out of whack.

00:12:07 Jeff Hrusko

OK.

00:12:08 Jeff Hrusko

And then you can go further into that and you could find what the underlying problem is and then with them build a solution that fits.

00:12:16 Jeff Hrusko

which may or may not be training, because like I said, they're not a training professional, but you never say, hey, you're not a training professional, listen to me.

00:12:25 Jeff Hrusko

No, you have to pull their wisdom.

00:12:28 Jeff Hrusko

They know the process.

00:12:29 Jeff Hrusko

And then that transitions into an SMA too, which this happens, like you rightly pointed out a lot.

00:12:37 Jeff Hrusko

And that happened in that example that I told you about, uh, in uh, was on a long time ago.

00:12:44 Jeff Hrusko

This guy was.

00:12:46 Jeff Hrusko

Sure, the world's greatest expert on this topic, which I don't remember.

00:12:52 RK Prasad

That shows that how effective the presentation was.

00:12:55 Jeff Hrusko

Exactly, exactly.

00:12:56 Jeff Hrusko

You only remember how bad it was.

00:12:59 Jeff Hrusko

And there's a couple key things in here.

00:13:02 Jeff Hrusko

One is sometimes it's important to have a facilitator who is an instructional designer, who actually is a trainer.

00:13:13 Jeff Hrusko

Right.

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And this way you can use the SME as a resource there.

00:13:20 Jeff Hrusko

Like why make somebody do something that is not in their wheelhouse, right?

00:13:26 Jeff Hrusko

So you have 2 things.

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One, you could either get them there by doing a train the trainer session, but you have to do it very respectively, respectfully, understanding their wisdom, their journey and what they're trying to convey.

00:13:41 Jeff Hrusko

But most times, in fact, a good example of this is teaching something highly technical like project management for, say, like an engineering firm.

00:13:51 Jeff Hrusko

And you have some of these smartest people you could imagine, right, who aren't great communicators.

00:13:59 Jeff Hrusko

And they don't want to be necessarily.

00:14:01 Jeff Hrusko

And like that poor fellow who is just sitting there reading his PowerPoints one after another, he didn't want to do that.

00:14:10 Jeff Hrusko

We didn't want to listen to that.

00:14:11 Jeff Hrusko

Now, imagine if you had somebody that helped him, right, that put 3 bullet points on the board and was able to chunk that information and be able to call on him.

00:14:25 Jeff Hrusko

Right, for the heavy lifting, for the technical details, for the application part of it, that's your winning thing.

00:14:32 Jeff Hrusko

That's what that particular person would want.

00:14:34 Jeff Hrusko

That's what you want, and that's what the audience wants.

00:14:37 RK Prasad

So I think that's a fantastic idea.

00:14:40 RK Prasad

That's a fantastic idea.

00:14:42 RK Prasad

You're talking about some kind of conversation which goes on between the facilitator and the SME.

00:14:53 RK Prasad

and.

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There will be clarification on both sides.

00:14:56 RK Prasad

Is that what you're meaning?

00:15:00 Jeff Hrusko

That model can work, yes, definitely.

00:15:05 Jeff Hrusko

Where you're using them as a resource, the facilitator is doing just that, facilitating the session, bringing the SME in when they're ready.

00:15:16 Jeff Hrusko

and when they're needed.

00:15:17 Jeff Hrusko

An important part of all this though, and this is highly recommended, of course, you know this too, but do one or 2 dry runs, especially if you're with somebody who's not a natural presenter, right?

00:15:33 Jeff Hrusko

And might be nervous on that.

00:15:34 Jeff Hrusko

And something that I've found, especially working with people like that, don't stress on the ums and ahs.

00:15:43 Jeff Hrusko

Right?

00:15:43 Jeff Hrusko

Because a lot of people will, when you take a, it's important, but like a public speaking thing, they'll get on somebody and they'll just make the person nervous.

00:15:53 Jeff Hrusko

No, have a rhythm with them when they came in.

00:15:57 Jeff Hrusko

They need to know what to expect, what is expected of them, and let them know that you are there sort of as a.

00:16:06 Jeff Hrusko

Also like a safety net to drive the conversation, tell them what to expect.

00:16:11 Jeff Hrusko

And then it's amazing, you can get these people who have vastly different social styles to communicate effectively with their audience, right?

00:16:24 RK Prasad

Yeah, I think I don't, I didn't see, as a matter of fact, I never seen this kind of hybrid.

00:16:33 RK Prasad

I would say that there is.

00:16:36 RK Prasad

A facilitator or a learning expert along with the speech SME when it comes to classroom training.

00:16:45 RK Prasad

But I think it is an idea what you know, considering and for us to spread across that may solve a lot of problems because sometimes train the trainer may not be very welcome in some companies.

00:17:02 RK Prasad

They will say what is that which I give?

00:17:05 RK Prasad

10,000 presentations.

00:17:06 RK Prasad

So what is that you are going to teach that resistance may come?

00:17:10 RK Prasad

But anyway, just a small little side question.

00:17:14 RK Prasad

See, lets say a guy goes to a surgeon and the surgeon says that you have to undergo a procedure.

00:17:30 RK Prasad

The patient will not question him.

00:17:35 RK Prasad

He will not debate right now.

00:17:40 RK Prasad

Let us change that to a corporate setting where, let us say, the IT guys come and say this software will be implemented.

00:17:50 RK Prasad

I don't think anybody will question them saying that why this software?

00:17:53 RK Prasad

Why not this?

00:17:55 RK Prasad

Why is that LND guys kept?

00:17:58 RK Prasad

Because everybody thinks he's an LND specialist.

00:18:01 Jeff Hrusko

That is very true.

00:18:02 Jeff Hrusko

And that's one of the most frustrating things.

00:18:05 Jeff Hrusko

that you come across.

00:18:07 Jeff Hrusko

And what I was talking about before, you almost not trick them, but you want to make your stakeholders a Co creator in this and guide them.

00:18:20 Jeff Hrusko

And then because I've learned not to push back.

00:18:25 Jeff Hrusko

Okay, so you want this to be 5 days, you want this these people to have 10 hour days.

00:18:31 Jeff Hrusko

Okay, just.

00:18:33 Jeff Hrusko

Why?

00:18:34 Jeff Hrusko

Asking them some good, asking them some good questions and let them come to it, let them think it's their ideas.

00:18:41 Jeff Hrusko

Like, oh, you know, so if we, Jeff, I have an idea.

00:18:46 Jeff Hrusko

Why don't we take some of the basic stuff and give it to them beforehand?

00:18:52 Jeff Hrusko

It's a great idea.

00:18:53 Jeff Hrusko

Let's give them pre work.

00:18:56 Jeff Hrusko

And this way we can make it 2 days, right?

00:18:59 Jeff Hrusko

But I don't know why.

00:19:00 Jeff Hrusko

And I think it's because like it's, we have processes, it is a discipline, but it's also kind of a social science.

00:19:12 Jeff Hrusko

But for some, you know what I think it might be, the experience that I was talking about, everybody has seen that experience.

00:19:20 Jeff Hrusko

I have been through that experience.

00:19:21 Jeff Hrusko

And I think they think, well, I can do this and maybe they can't.

00:19:26 Jeff Hrusko

But it's a.

00:19:28 Jeff Hrusko

It's one of the most frustrating things.

00:19:30 Jeff Hrusko

One thing I learned though early on is, and I'm sure you, I know you dealt with this too.

00:19:38 Jeff Hrusko

You create a learning product.

00:19:40 Jeff Hrusko

It goes through all of these different layers, all these different SMEs.

00:19:44 Jeff Hrusko

You get buy in and everything else like that.

00:19:46 Jeff Hrusko

You're like, oh, we're good to go.

00:19:47 Jeff Hrusko

Oh, but first we got to give it to Charlie.

00:19:49 Jeff Hrusko

Who's Charlie?

00:19:50 Jeff Hrusko

Well, he's the guy that signs the checks.

00:19:54 RK Prasad

Yeah, absolutely right.

00:19:56 RK Prasad

He'll say why have 200,000?

00:19:59 RK Prasad

Let us get it for 120.

00:20:02 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah.

00:20:02 Jeff Hrusko

And also say I want everything purple and I love dubstep music.

00:20:11 Jeff Hrusko

We should put that in.

00:20:15 Jeff Hrusko

Always at the end.

00:20:17 Jeff Hrusko

So one thing I learned, which works to varying degrees, but like.

00:20:24 Jeff Hrusko

Give that last guy something to find that's easy to fix.

00:20:28 Jeff Hrusko

Animators used to call this hairy arms because they would draw something and give the characters hairy arms.

00:20:35 Jeff Hrusko

So when it went to the top boss, it was like, oh, what's this?

00:20:37 Jeff Hrusko

Get rid of that.

00:20:38 Jeff Hrusko

Oh, brilliant job.

00:20:39 Jeff Hrusko

That's a I didn't think of that.

00:20:44 RK Prasad

So so.

00:20:47 RK Prasad

It frustrates me because all my most of my career was in this field of L&D and training.

00:20:55 RK Prasad

It frustrates me to think why is that the profession has not grown in stature, right?

00:21:06 RK Prasad

Where line managers and senior managers or the top managers take this as a very very critical input.

00:21:17 RK Prasad

And give the profession and the professional the due vintage.

00:21:25 RK Prasad

It looks like we always have to be very diplomatic, very consultative, we want to Co create.

00:21:34 RK Prasad

So my next question is moving a little into the logical progression of that.

00:21:44 RK Prasad

How will it be?

00:21:46 RK Prasad

That with the advent of a I, how will the scene be?

00:21:55 RK Prasad

And do you think by mastering a I ourselves right and training the a I to train the people, maybe we can change the equation?

00:22:20 Jeff Hrusko

I don't know.

00:22:22 Jeff Hrusko

I do know in some ways.

00:22:26 Jeff Hrusko

OK, let's take a step back and look at what AI does really well as it is now, right?

00:22:33 Jeff Hrusko

AI looks at large data sets and pulls out patterns and data.

00:22:42 Jeff Hrusko

And this in our process, which.

00:22:45 Jeff Hrusko

In the short form of our process is you analyze, you understand the problem, you do gap analysis.

00:22:52 Jeff Hrusko

It helps tremendously there, right?

00:22:55 Jeff Hrusko

Because a lot of things that we would have to do manually, it can do.

00:22:59 Jeff Hrusko

It helps at the other end too, because it's looking at data sets.

00:23:03 Jeff Hrusko

So you can look at metrics, you can possibly then get ROI on your learning.

00:23:12 Jeff Hrusko

from data sources that you might not have considered earlier, depending on what the topic is, right?

00:23:17 Jeff Hrusko

So not just completion time and course, all those type of things which are not that relevant for that.

00:23:24 Jeff Hrusko

But looking at the company's KPI's, looking at other things like even email communication, tremendous boom there, right?

00:23:35 Jeff Hrusko

So perhaps then between these 2 things because it can and.

00:23:42 Jeff Hrusko

It can so quickly help you in the analysis version of it, taking different data sets, putting them together, do quantitative and qualitative analysis.

00:23:51 Jeff Hrusko

And at the end, perhaps you can give more of a scientific based argument for what you want to do.

00:24:04 Jeff Hrusko

But we did that anyway.

00:24:06 Jeff Hrusko

It just took longer.

00:24:07 Jeff Hrusko

And so I don't know if that will solve that problem.

00:24:10 RK Prasad

Why I am Why I thought maybe there is some promise in this idea is that there will be all a I expert experts in all functions after some time and you have consultants coming in.

00:24:25 RK Prasad

But the advantage we have is the knowledge of how people learn which a I experts do not have so.

00:24:40 RK Prasad

I'm sure you must have seen the trend where a I agents for medical science, for example.

00:24:47 RK Prasad

Now the people most in demand are very experienced medical professionals who are used to train the system on the subject, right?

00:24:58 RK Prasad

So anybody cannot train the a I to facilitate learning.

00:25:06 RK Prasad

I will tell you a small example.

00:25:08 RK Prasad

I have done, I have developed a master prompt which is supposed to spit out a complete publisher, publisher ready storyboard.

00:25:22 RK Prasad

But it didn't work.

00:25:26 RK Prasad

It did not work because there has to be human intervention in between.

00:25:33 RK Prasad

Now I was reading somewhere that.

00:25:36 RK Prasad

People will lose if they use AI to stop their thinking.

00:25:44 Jeff Hrusko

That's for sure.

00:25:45 RK Prasad

And people will gain when they use AI to enhance their thinking.

00:25:53 RK Prasad

So I was just wondering, maybe we have a spot there?

00:25:59 Jeff Hrusko

Oh, I think we definitely do and related, but a little bit different.

00:26:05 Jeff Hrusko

One of the things that I think we have an advantage of and I had from the dealing with AI from the onset, you know, with MaxLearn and everything, because we ask very good questions.

00:26:21 Jeff Hrusko

And I think the we instructional designers and trainers, because we're dealing with people all the time, like our job is to take this expert.

00:26:32 Jeff Hrusko

and distill his knowledge, gain it, right?

00:26:35 Jeff Hrusko

You know, so we come with the idiot's guide, like we want, we need to figure this out quickly, right?

00:26:40 RK Prasad

Yeah.

00:26:40 Jeff Hrusko

So I found that we have a natural ability to write the right types of prompts.

00:26:48 RK Prasad

Exactly.

00:26:49 Jeff Hrusko

And exactly.

00:26:50 RK Prasad

That's what I was wanting to see.

00:26:53 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah.

00:26:53 Jeff Hrusko

And that's definitely.

00:26:55 RK Prasad

Yeah, I sorry, go ahead, please.

00:26:58 RK Prasad

I got you excited about that.

00:27:00 Jeff Hrusko

No, that's a boom.

00:27:02 Jeff Hrusko

And that makes our, I think, use of AI more efficient.

00:27:06 Jeff Hrusko

But, and you probably get to these butts too.

00:27:10 Jeff Hrusko

Like a lot of AI systems are very sycophonic.

00:27:15 Jeff Hrusko

Did I say that right?

00:27:16 Jeff Hrusko

They want to flatter you.

00:27:18 RK Prasad

Yes, that I noticed.

00:27:21 RK Prasad

Unless and that's dangerous.

00:27:23 RK Prasad

Yeah, unless you have a very specific prompt.

00:27:26 RK Prasad

Which says don't agree to whatever I'm saying.

00:27:30 Jeff Hrusko

And also the system to Claude, I found, is a little bit better.

00:27:33 Jeff Hrusko

It's now my one of choice because it pushes back.

00:27:36 Jeff Hrusko

But I have to keep telling to push back, but it pushes back a little bit, which I love.

00:27:40 RK Prasad

You mean Claude Design?

00:27:44 Jeff Hrusko

Claude AI, you know, from Anthropic.

00:27:46 RK Prasad

Yeah, has come up with a version.

00:27:48 RK Prasad

I think it's called called Claude Design, if I'm not wrong, that is specifically to develop training courses.

00:27:57 Jeff Hrusko

I didn't now have to look at that and.

00:27:59 RK Prasad

Yeah.

00:28:00 RK Prasad

So apparently my people say that is much better than ChatGPT or Grok or something like that, or for that matter, Gemini and Copilot.

00:28:13 RK Prasad

With junior level instructional designers and even sometimes senior level instructional designers, let us say there is a lot of dense raw material, you know.

00:28:25 Jeff Hrusko

Yes.

00:28:26 RK Prasad

Now what they do is they just put it there and say give me a summary of this and based on the summary give me some learning objectives.

00:28:37 RK Prasad

Now how does he is not ensuring that the summary is right.

00:28:44 RK Prasad

How can they depend on the AI to get the exact summary?

00:28:48 RK Prasad

Suppose you ask it to do it once more, you get a different summary.

00:28:52 Jeff Hrusko

And that's the scary thing and we're.

00:28:55 Jeff Hrusko

I fear for the next.

00:28:57 Jeff Hrusko

generation because we can see and we could evaluate.

00:29:02 Jeff Hrusko

The content right to see if it's correct, because we have that knowledge.

00:29:07 Jeff Hrusko

If that goes away, things might be scary.

00:29:10 Jeff Hrusko

And I'll give you not a fun example of this.

00:29:15 Jeff Hrusko

But and a real example.

00:29:18 Jeff Hrusko

In the war in Iran.

00:29:23 Jeff Hrusko

A I made that determination to.

00:29:26 RK Prasad

Right.

00:29:27 RK Prasad

I read about it.

00:29:29 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, yeah.

00:29:30 Jeff Hrusko

And with humans may have pressed the button there, but how much did they really look at that to realize that it was outdated data, right?

00:29:45 Jeff Hrusko

And that I think that need for because it's so easy.

00:29:50 Jeff Hrusko

And this comes really, this comes with any technology.

00:29:52 Jeff Hrusko

I mean, Socrates was talking about the dangers of writing and they will forget everything, right?

00:30:01 Jeff Hrusko

Truly, he was like against me.

00:30:02 Jeff Hrusko

So people are not gonna be able to remember all the things that they remembered.

00:30:05 Jeff Hrusko

Think about, we don't remember phone numbers now because of the cell phone, but.

00:30:10 Jeff Hrusko

We, that's a big scary thing.

00:30:13 Jeff Hrusko

If we rely too much on just the answers and give it a cursory glance and like, yeah, even if ChatGPT or Claude 5 times gave you the right answers, still check the 7th time, the 8th time.

00:30:27 Jeff Hrusko

And I've noticed this particularly in my latest job hunt because of course I'm using it to.

00:30:35 Jeff Hrusko

Update my resume and things like that.

00:30:37 RK Prasad

Yeah, we were speaking about that, Jeff, about the dangers for the, you know, younger people.

00:30:46 RK Prasad

You gave the example of how cloud was used to, you know, pinpoint targets.

00:30:56 RK Prasad

Yeah.

00:30:59 RK Prasad

So going back to my example of, let us say, comprehending the.

00:31:06 RK Prasad

Content and making sure that it is reflected correctly, that all the major points are covered.

00:31:17 RK Prasad

If he is a conscientious and mature person, he will quickly scan and see whether everything is going on.

00:31:27 RK Prasad

But if he is a bit lazy, he will just plow ahead.

00:31:33 RK Prasad

So can we?

00:31:35 RK Prasad

Program an agent to make sure that it, the AI, the agent sort of doesn't go forward unless he proves he has read the whole thing.

00:31:53 Jeff Hrusko

I think we need something beyond self discipline.

00:32:00 Jeff Hrusko

So one of the things I think historically have helped, has helped me is I'm a poor proofreader.

00:32:09 Jeff Hrusko

And because of that, when I was in school, I would have to take a ruler and look at each line by itself and go hold down.

00:32:17 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah.

00:32:19 Jeff Hrusko

But that made me.

00:32:20 RK Prasad

Yeah, that's the problem with creative people.

00:32:23 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, it made me a much better writer developing those skills.

00:32:28 Jeff Hrusko

And now.

00:32:30 Jeff Hrusko

I have to put what I was talking about before, and I think this is a good idea.

00:32:35 Jeff Hrusko

I recently was on looking for a new position using AI to just tweak my resume for this job or that job.

00:32:45 Jeff Hrusko

And like I said, 5 times it did a great job.

00:32:47 Jeff Hrusko

And then all of a sudden, you know, I did one of those little scans and I'm like, I never did that.

00:32:54 Jeff Hrusko

It confused this with that.

00:32:57 Jeff Hrusko

It didn't confused 2 things.

00:33:00 Jeff Hrusko

Just the word contabulation, something like that.

00:33:02 Jeff Hrusko

And I'm like, oh, okay, let's start again.

00:33:07 Jeff Hrusko

So I started a new thread and that seemed to help.

00:33:11 Jeff Hrusko

But this is the tricky thing with it.

00:33:14 Jeff Hrusko

There's a variability that it'll work because of that variability, fuzziness, I think they call it, it'll work the same.

00:33:23 Jeff Hrusko

15 times and on the 16th time, something will creep in and then that will become part much like evolution, right?

00:33:31 Jeff Hrusko

That you have a copying error and that can grow.

00:33:37 Jeff Hrusko

That can grow.

00:33:40 Jeff Hrusko

So yeah, I think having some kind of a human, not just sit clicking the button, but really making them look at something, maybe not like the way I did line by line.

00:33:53 Jeff Hrusko

But it takes self-discipline, really.

00:33:56 Jeff Hrusko

I guess you could, I'm not sure if you can, because any workflow you make, you can make a workflow around it.

00:34:03 Jeff Hrusko

I do think that's a problem though.

00:34:05 Jeff Hrusko

More and more, you think about it.

00:34:07 Jeff Hrusko

And I was listening to a podcast about this.

00:34:11 Jeff Hrusko

You have professors using it, you have students using it, and then who's learning?

00:34:15 Jeff Hrusko

You have one AI talking to another.

00:34:21 RK Prasad

Exactly.

00:34:21 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, in a classroom.

00:34:23 RK Prasad

I mean, it on one hand it looks very humorous, but I keep coming across, you know, research and studies which show that our very cognitive ability will go down.

00:34:40 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, I worry about that too.

00:34:43 Jeff Hrusko

And for myself, sometimes I force myself not to use A I for a simple.

00:34:53 Jeff Hrusko

a simple email or something else like that, because it's so easy for you to say, oh, okay, write this thank you email to this person, send.

00:35:03 Jeff Hrusko

But then it's going to be the point where we lose the ability ourselves to know what it's like.

00:35:11 Jeff Hrusko

And I want you to what I'll do for the evolution of language, like I noticed, especially with ChatGPT.

00:35:20 Jeff Hrusko

It loves using em dashes, which are fantastic.

00:35:23 Jeff Hrusko

I like their punchiness, right?

00:35:25 Jeff Hrusko

There's a dash like this and then boom, you get this, it's punchiness.

00:35:29 Jeff Hrusko

But very few people write like that.

00:35:31 Jeff Hrusko

And before that, people were sort of dropping some articles and making it a little more tight language.

00:35:41 Jeff Hrusko

And that's the normal evolution of language.

00:35:43 Jeff Hrusko

Now again, we've cut that at a normal evolution of language because it's looking at the.

00:35:48 Jeff Hrusko

APA or the Chicago Manual of Style, right?

00:35:53 Jeff Hrusko

And which is good in a way.

00:35:55 Jeff Hrusko

It's nice, clean writing, but it's not necessarily human writing.

00:35:59 RK Prasad

Correct.

00:36:01 RK Prasad

And people have already became quite proficient in identifying that this is AI written.

00:36:10 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, yeah.

00:36:12 Jeff Hrusko

And it's kind of it's almost like an arms race to see.

00:36:17 RK Prasad

But on the other hand, yeah, go ahead.

00:36:21 Jeff Hrusko

On the other hand, though, let me, let's talk about the good because we could be naysayers.

00:36:25 Jeff Hrusko

Good thing is this.

00:36:28 Jeff Hrusko

So again, like I was recently on a job search and one of the things that I did before an interview, I took my notes.

00:36:38 Jeff Hrusko

I threw it in Claude.

00:36:40 Jeff Hrusko

I say, give me a podcast script.

00:36:41 Jeff Hrusko

I threw it in another program.

00:36:43 Jeff Hrusko

I got a podcast.

00:36:44 Jeff Hrusko

I'm walking my dog and it's saying, hey Jeff, you're going to walk into this room and wow them.

00:36:49 Jeff Hrusko

They may ask you this, they may ask you that.

00:36:52 Jeff Hrusko

And that possibility of multimodal learning, right?

00:36:58 Jeff Hrusko

You take it.

00:36:59 Jeff Hrusko

It depends on what it is, but what we're as we're kind of going up Bloom's taxonomy or basically higher states of knowledge and actually becoming a creator, mastery and all those things.

00:37:12 Jeff Hrusko

The baseline people at different times will react, will interact with information differently for that basic type of information, something like that, having the ability to quickly.

00:37:27 Jeff Hrusko

Create me a video, create me a podcast from this document.

00:37:31 Jeff Hrusko

You know, is a good first step to getting different sensory inputs, to adapting to different learning styles or even different situational learnings.

00:37:42 Jeff Hrusko

Like I said, I could listen to that as I'm walking my dog, right?

00:37:45 Jeff Hrusko

And then I come in and look at my notes again.

00:37:47 Jeff Hrusko

So you have different types of sensory input.

00:37:51 Jeff Hrusko

So for certain things where it doesn't.

00:37:56 Jeff Hrusko

Matter that much, right?

00:37:58 Jeff Hrusko

Meaning like if it got an eye or one or 2 things wrong, but you just quickly want to interact with the information differently and the stakes aren't that high.

00:38:09 Jeff Hrusko

I think it's incredibly powerful.

00:38:11 Jeff Hrusko

Of course, that was for one prep.

00:38:14 RK Prasad

Absolutely true.

00:38:15 RK Prasad

You see, as you said, you mentioned about arms race.

00:38:20 RK Prasad

Now it is very similar to.

00:38:24 RK Prasad

When the humankind stumbled upon, atomic energy and nuclear energy can be used for good and can be can potentially destroy all of us.

00:38:40 RK Prasad

So don't you get that feeling that unless there is for nuclear proliferation?

00:38:49 RK Prasad

There is an anti anti NPT treaty, anti proliferation.

00:38:56 RK Prasad

Yeah.

00:38:57 RK Prasad

So there is some kind of governance people have realised, governments have realised that, OK, he did it, I'll do a do it as a deterrent.

00:39:07 RK Prasad

And 56 countries have are now nuclear armed, but they will not allow anybody else to do it because it will complicate the problem.

00:39:16 RK Prasad

Where do you think we are as far as A I is concerned?

00:39:19 RK Prasad

Because A I can use atomic power.

00:39:25 Jeff Hrusko

And now we're almost talking about like, but it's no longer science fiction, really.

00:39:29 RK Prasad

Yes.

00:39:29 Jeff Hrusko

I don't know.

00:39:30 Jeff Hrusko

I think it's smarter people than us.

00:39:33 Jeff Hrusko

And speaking of smarter people than us, the what was well, at least me.

00:39:40 Jeff Hrusko

What was amazing to me when I saw the CEO of Anthropic.

00:39:45 Jeff Hrusko

Stand with the Pope Leo and put out this declaration about AI, exactly what we're talking about, the benefit of it and also the absolute danger.

00:40:00 Jeff Hrusko

So my God, yeah, I think we need a kill switch, for lack of a better word, some way to regulate it, but in a way that.

00:40:12 Jeff Hrusko

Again, then when you talk about the genie in the bottle, if you think about something like nuclear weapons, you still have countries like it takes a lot, a team of scientists, a lot of technology building upon itself to create a, God forbid, a nuclear weapon.

00:40:32 Jeff Hrusko

AI, you need processors.

00:40:35 Jeff Hrusko

Processors become exponentially cheaper and more powerful.

00:40:41 Jeff Hrusko

So how then do you stop 8 billion people?

00:40:47 Jeff Hrusko

Like there might be people in their basement creating this stuff.

00:40:50 RK Prasad

But again, beyond, yeah, I know.

00:40:53 RK Prasad

But if you see, there is a real life example in front of us.

00:40:57 RK Prasad

When Claude was assisting the US military, they realised they did something which they didn't want to do.

00:41:06 RK Prasad

And.

00:41:07 RK Prasad

They didn't want to give up their independence, so to speak.

00:41:15 RK Prasad

But then there is some other company which stepped in and filled that gap.

00:41:18 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, that's the scary thing.

00:41:22 RK Prasad

Now, okay, that anyway, we are not world leaders.

00:41:25 RK Prasad

And as you rightly said, there are more smarter and more, you know, conscientious.

00:41:30 Jeff Hrusko

Not that we shouldn't think about.

00:41:32 RK Prasad

Let us come back to a company.

00:41:34 RK Prasad

Our own company, our own organization, and you as a compliance expert, what kind of guardrails that we should promote so that in our own microcosm of our life, our universe, inside the company, how do you make sure that it is used ethically, responsibly for the good?

00:42:02 RK Prasad

So I want you to talk where both hands hats, one of the compliance and the other of the learning expert.

00:42:12 Jeff Hrusko

On the small level, which is the content creation.

00:42:18 Jeff Hrusko

Well, one thing we talked about, we have to really review what's produced.

00:42:23 Jeff Hrusko

But in addition to that, and you know, I've written some articles with AI's.

00:42:32 Jeff Hrusko

Hell.

00:42:32 Jeff Hrusko

And there was hell.

00:42:34 Jeff Hrusko

They didn't write the article.

00:42:35 Jeff Hrusko

I wrote the article, but this and that, asked it to evaluate it.

00:42:40 Jeff Hrusko

I just said at the bottom, I said in the notes, this was written by me.

00:42:45 Jeff Hrusko

And then put the role of what A I system I used, and it was Grammarly and say Claude A I, and to what degree.

00:42:52 Jeff Hrusko

I think we need to put the same thing on training, that this was vetted.

00:42:58 Jeff Hrusko

We take full responsibility as humans for the content, but we used assisted AI technologies to develop it.

00:43:05 Jeff Hrusko

That's a relatively small thing.

00:43:07 Jeff Hrusko

I think in our space, the most moral thing is the integrity of the information that we give because we're putting our name, our reputation out on anything that we create.

00:43:21 Jeff Hrusko

That to the best of our knowledge and our ability.

00:43:24 Jeff Hrusko

And that's where I think our moral obligation lies.

00:43:31 Jeff Hrusko

Also, our moral obligation always lies in developing content.

00:43:37 Jeff Hrusko

Not that it always makes mark, but that we know what it's supposed to do, what success looks like, what problems we're trying to solve, and all those things.

00:43:47 Jeff Hrusko

So I think in our space.

00:43:50 Jeff Hrusko

It's not a huge moral risk.

00:43:53 Jeff Hrusko

We've been through kind of similar things.

00:43:56 Jeff Hrusko

I remember when you went from CD to web, right?

00:44:01 Jeff Hrusko

And you could change things on the fly.

00:44:04 Jeff Hrusko

And there was a bunch of back then we called a shovelware, people throwing out content there, right?

00:44:10 RK Prasad

Shovelware.

00:44:10 RK Prasad

Okay, yeah, that's an old term.

00:44:13 Jeff Hrusko

Okay, very old term, but it's just getting stuff out there quickly.

00:44:18 Jeff Hrusko

without that caring.

00:44:20 Jeff Hrusko

And in this arms race, time to market is a tricky thing.

00:44:25 Jeff Hrusko

So that balance between quality, integrity, that's something else.

00:44:31 Jeff Hrusko

Now, on the other end, which isn't really our domain, but I've done work in this knowledge management.

00:44:38 Jeff Hrusko

I think it can be incredibly powerful.

00:44:42 Jeff Hrusko

Instead of, you know, having databases with indexes and all these things, you have to hunt for things.

00:44:47 Jeff Hrusko

You put even a simple Copilot agent on top of it.

00:44:53 Jeff Hrusko

It does a fairly good job, but then you got to test it.

00:44:56 Jeff Hrusko

But it does a nice job of finding something like, what you know, am I allowed to sell this product to this person, right?

00:45:06 Jeff Hrusko

And I'll say, you know, list you the relevant documents and give you a summary that has to be tested and verified, though.

00:45:13 Jeff Hrusko

And you have to put that disclaimer that errors can happen if that's important.

00:45:17 Jeff Hrusko

But again, but what I fear is, and it happens is again, the A I talking to A I, when it comes to HR, when it comes to one of the things that I learned early.

00:45:35 Jeff Hrusko

earlyish mid career, getting resumes from people.

00:45:41 Jeff Hrusko

I realized my own unconscious bias when they became conscious by like misreading somebody's name and having one vision of the person and then meeting them and have a different vision.

00:45:55 Jeff Hrusko

And then I stopped looking at names.

00:45:58 Jeff Hrusko

I stopped.

00:45:59 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, stop looking at names on resumes.

00:46:04 Jeff Hrusko

And that and just look at the information for what it is.

00:46:09 Jeff Hrusko

Now, what are these algorithms running?

00:46:13 Jeff Hrusko

How are they make?

00:46:14 Jeff Hrusko

What resumes are they, like I said, as an arms race, are they bringing to the attention to people?

00:46:21 Jeff Hrusko

What turn of phrases are they looking for?

00:46:23 Jeff Hrusko

What are they trying to map up?

00:46:25 Jeff Hrusko

What unconscious biases have embedded themselves within this system?

00:46:32 Jeff Hrusko

This is, I think, a hugely moral question.

00:46:37 Jeff Hrusko

Another one, which we haven't talked about because I don't have the answers for it either, is nobody does it as far as I know, is IP intellectual property.

00:46:48 Jeff Hrusko

So 2 things on that.

00:46:50 Jeff Hrusko

The AI systems are getting the information somewhere.

00:46:53 Jeff Hrusko

It's pulling it.

00:46:55 Jeff Hrusko

Aggregating it.

00:46:56 Jeff Hrusko

You can see this mostly with in this generation where you're like, well, that looks awfully similar to all these stock photos that I've seen.

00:47:06 Jeff Hrusko

Why do you think that is?

00:47:06 Jeff Hrusko

Because it's getting it from the stock ones and just messing it up a little bit.

00:47:12 Jeff Hrusko

Secondly, what happens to your information when you put it in there?

00:47:16 Jeff Hrusko

You put in some of your ideas, your thoughts, and you just want to send in your check.

00:47:21 Jeff Hrusko

Like again, those articles that I was writing, you know, these are my thoughts.

00:47:25 Jeff Hrusko

Hey, ChatGPT.

00:47:26 Jeff Hrusko

Hey, Claude, what do you think of this?

00:47:27 Jeff Hrusko

It's now taking that and then putting it with, unless you own the system like and have a proprietary system, it's putting it in the ether and mixing it up with other ideas.

00:47:38 Jeff Hrusko

You just have to realize that, you know, it's a it's a risk for intellectual property.

00:47:42 Jeff Hrusko

It's a less.

00:47:43 Jeff Hrusko

Another question is who owns it, right?

00:47:49 Jeff Hrusko

At what point is it not yours?

00:47:52 Jeff Hrusko

Like, is there a mark there?

00:47:54 RK Prasad

It's a universal thing that it becomes a universal ownership.

00:48:00 RK Prasad

Anybody can use that?

00:48:02 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah.

00:48:03 Jeff Hrusko

Which may not be a bad thing as long as we're all on the same page with that.

00:48:07 Jeff Hrusko

But we're not all these all these questions.

00:48:12 RK Prasad

Same page for anything, Jeff.

00:48:14 RK Prasad

I think if you just read the read any newspaper headlines, we know that.

00:48:20 RK Prasad

But.

00:48:21 RK Prasad

But yes, I think these are some, I should say, disturbing questions, questions that we don't have clear answers, but at least we are aware of the ramifications.

00:48:35 RK Prasad

That said, do you have a kind of advice and some kind of tips to our audience?

00:48:50 RK Prasad

which are, which is mainly comprised of instructional designers and learning experts in relation to the usage of AI.

00:49:01 Jeff Hrusko

I think we covered a lot of the territory, but the bottom line is have it, use it where it works best, which again is going through large data sets.

00:49:14 Jeff Hrusko

It really has cut down the development time by about 90%.

00:49:19 Jeff Hrusko

Mostly in the analytics aspect of it, by if you have, if you're developing content, you could throw a large data set, have a look at trends.

00:49:28 Jeff Hrusko

You need to verify that with the SME, of course, but that's a big place.

00:49:32 Jeff Hrusko

Another thing on the other end of it is on the effectiveness of it.

00:49:40 Jeff Hrusko

I think you can get a bigger case even if it's not a direct causality, but if you can get correlations from different data points.

00:49:48 Jeff Hrusko

Again, it all depends on defining what success looks like.

00:49:51 Jeff Hrusko

But there again, too, instead of manually or doing spreadsheets or trying to find things, you know, we're not data scientists.

00:49:59 Jeff Hrusko

It can act as a data science.

00:50:00 Jeff Hrusko

And of course, most likely we're not doing things that are life and death.

00:50:04 Jeff Hrusko

So it gives you a pretty good approximation, right?

00:50:08 Jeff Hrusko

The other hint, which I told you is have or I mentioned.

00:50:15 Jeff Hrusko

Have other people run the same query with the same information, see if you get different results.

00:50:21 Jeff Hrusko

Again, you have to be, this is the biggest problem I think right now with a lot of AI systems is they want to be agreeable to you and you can go down rabbit holes.

00:50:30 Jeff Hrusko

And the longer the thread is, the more memory that is taking, the more artifacts or hallucinations, they call it, or basically inaccuracies could come in, right?

00:50:42 Jeff Hrusko

Because depending on how the system works.

00:50:45 Jeff Hrusko

They're getting better and better from where it was 3 years ago.

00:50:47 Jeff Hrusko

It's amazing.

00:50:48 Jeff Hrusko

Remember, like when we were doing, when we were looking at MaxLearn, we were looking at something that could create simple questions.

00:50:53 Jeff Hrusko

And we talked to some fellows and I was so thrilled that they had these and they're terrible.

00:50:57 Jeff Hrusko

You know, this one system before A I and then A I came like, wow, that was wonderful.

00:51:03 Jeff Hrusko

But I think you used the.

00:51:05 RK Prasad

First version of ChatGPT in MaxLearn.

00:51:07 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, we did, we did.

00:51:09 RK Prasad

And we created pioneers of.

00:51:12 RK Prasad

Using ChatGPT AI in learning space.

00:51:16 Jeff Hrusko

We were one of the first to market.

00:51:18 Jeff Hrusko

And the cool thing about it like back then too, they kind of gave you more because it was, it wasn't even released fully.

00:51:24 Jeff Hrusko

They gave you more controls over the fuzziness of the logic and the actual data sources.

00:51:32 Jeff Hrusko

And it was less complicated but also cleaner and it gave you.

00:51:39 Jeff Hrusko

The At the time, I called it the equivalent of what a, say, grad assistant would give you or an assistant would give you.

00:51:48 Jeff Hrusko

You know, somebody who isn't a leader in the field, but giving a first draft, it wasn't bad.

00:51:55 Jeff Hrusko

You still ought to work on it still saves you time.

00:51:58 RK Prasad

Yeah, right.

00:52:01 Jeff Hrusko

But the other thing is what the example that I gave, and I also have done this with other things too.

00:52:08 Jeff Hrusko

So if you have a communication to send out, give them options like it's communication.

00:52:14 Jeff Hrusko

All right, there's a new regulation coming down that affects whatever sales, this, that you have the regulation, create a quick video, create a podcast, create questions with it, get the you know, people can then interact with the information the way they want to.

00:52:32 Jeff Hrusko

And that is the real superpower with it to be able to.

00:52:37 Jeff Hrusko

Get that multimodal learning on topics very quickly because you remember, I mean, throughout our whole career, it's been like this.

00:52:47 Jeff Hrusko

I remember making a video where somebody's taking or animation, somebody's taking a potato and throwing it.

00:52:53 Jeff Hrusko

Thinking about hot potato.

00:52:54 Jeff Hrusko

I forgot what the analogy was, but I put it in there and it took me like a week to make this.

00:52:59 RK Prasad

Yes, yes, using flash flash.

00:53:03 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, yeah, drawing it all and now.

00:53:07 Jeff Hrusko

One of the latest things I made was showing people not letting somebody through a checkpoint at a company or a security thing.

00:53:17 Jeff Hrusko

And you just went and you put the prompt in these people, this, that, and that.

00:53:21 Jeff Hrusko

And it created a life video of that.

00:53:26 Jeff Hrusko

But here's the thing, what it gave me to white people, what it gave me is.

00:53:36 Jeff Hrusko

All the stock art stuff, what it gave me is like the gate went through their bodies like a ghost.

00:53:44 Jeff Hrusko

And getting those details down is tough.

00:53:48 Jeff Hrusko

So I guess the bottom line is it's good for a multimodal learning.

00:53:53 Jeff Hrusko

It's good for this, but if you want something really professional, you need to take the time.

00:53:57 Jeff Hrusko

It's not quite there.

00:53:59 Jeff Hrusko

One thing else we have not talked about, which my stepdaughter.

00:54:03 Jeff Hrusko

Reminds me every time I say, hey, Paul said this, and she's like, how much water did that use?

00:54:11 Jeff Hrusko

How much power did that use?

00:54:12 Jeff Hrusko

Correct, correct.

00:54:15 Jeff Hrusko

How much carbon did that create?

00:54:17 Jeff Hrusko

Yeah, the environment, which is again, beyond our thing.

00:54:22 Jeff Hrusko

So all questions.

00:54:23 Jeff Hrusko

But for a learner, I mean, we'll be left behind.

00:54:27 Jeff Hrusko

Obviously, we have to use the tool, user morality.

00:54:31 Jeff Hrusko

Remember the human first aspect and make sure you look at and also have other people look at any content that you're sending out as a person.

00:54:44 Jeff Hrusko

Sit through it itself and not just clicking the button.

00:54:47 Jeff Hrusko

Like, you know, thankfully we're not causing life or death things for the most part.

00:54:53 Jeff Hrusko

as a learner and say, I'm a learner.

00:54:55 Jeff Hrusko

Is this a good use of my time?

00:54:57 Jeff Hrusko

Do I know what I want to do with this information?

00:55:00 Jeff Hrusko

Do you know what?

00:55:00 Jeff Hrusko

Do I know what I can do with this information?

00:55:03 Jeff Hrusko

If you can't answer those questions, then revise it.

00:55:07 RK Prasad

Right.

00:55:08 RK Prasad

Excellent.

00:55:09 RK Prasad

So thank you very much, Jeff.

00:55:11 RK Prasad

And I would like to quickly do a roundup summarising what you have said.

00:55:15 RK Prasad

We have talked about many things and you have given some very, very critical information.

00:55:20 RK Prasad

But I would like to pick up 3 most important points.

00:55:24 RK Prasad

The bedrock of our conversation and your advice or your philosophy is human centered learning.

00:55:33 RK Prasad

All these tools are to facilitate that.

00:55:36 RK Prasad

Don't forget the human being, their requirements, their needs, you know, respect their time, their effort.

00:55:45 RK Prasad

The second thing is about AI.

00:55:47 RK Prasad

AI is excellent.

00:55:49 RK Prasad

To save time, do it fast, saving almost 90% of the development time.

00:55:57 RK Prasad

But the most important thing is the integrity of what it is giving you out.

00:56:02 RK Prasad

So you cannot take whatever it gives you and blindly use it.

00:56:08 RK Prasad

You have the moral professional responsibility to validate it yourself or with somebody else and then only release it.

00:56:18 RK Prasad

Would you like to add anything here?

00:56:21 Jeff Hrusko

Oh no, I think you got it.

00:56:25 Jeff Hrusko

It's one thing I want to say on the on the human centric design and I'm trying to get a good example, but this might be a somewhat good example.

00:56:35 Jeff Hrusko

Basically, it's a design theory.

00:56:38 Jeff Hrusko

Did you ever pick something up and like here's one.

00:56:42 Jeff Hrusko

This is a pen.

00:56:43 Jeff Hrusko

This is.

00:56:44 Jeff Hrusko

A pen in every sense of the word, meaning it writes, it does that.

00:56:47 Jeff Hrusko

It's not very comfortable to hold.

00:56:49 Jeff Hrusko

It's not the right size.

00:56:51 Jeff Hrusko

It's not designed for humans.

00:56:52 Jeff Hrusko

It's designed for looks, right?

00:56:54 Jeff Hrusko

I shouldn't pick on this person.

00:56:56 Jeff Hrusko

It's not that bad.

00:56:57 Jeff Hrusko

But anything like that, just remember, yes, somebody has to use it and always keep that person in mind cause that person will be you and as you.

00:57:08 RK Prasad

Yeah, actually, that reminds me of one, one, you know.

00:57:14 RK Prasad

I read somewhere that why is that small screwdrivers have small handles as though people who use small screwdrivers have small handles.

00:57:27 RK Prasad

So yeah, I got it goes back to your basic premise that we should concentrate on the human being because the way we learn has never changed.

00:57:39 RK Prasad

Only the methodologies and modalities have changed.

00:57:43 Jeff Hrusko

Exactly.

00:57:44 RK Prasad

Thank you very much, Jeff.

00:57:45 Jeff Hrusko

Thank you, RK.

00:57:46 Jeff Hrusko

Hope to see you soon.

00:57:47 RK Prasad

Thank you very much.

00:57:48 RK Prasad

Yes, I will.

00:57:50 RK Prasad

Thank you.

00:57:51 Jeff Hrusko

Talk to you.

00:57:52 Jeff Hrusko

Bye.