Building Thinking that Drives Business: A Conversation with Mary Rapaport

CommLab Podcast with Mary Rapaport

00:00:44 Speaker 1

Hey, learning champions. Welcome back to the eLearning Champion podcast, where we dive deep into strategies, trends, and triumphs shaping up the world of digital learning. In today's episode, we are going to look at building your L&D team for business impact. And for this topic, we have Mary Rapaport online with us. Mary Rapaport is on a mission to democratize strategic thinking. She's the creator of The Strategic Playground, an energizing development experience that helps leaders and teams build the thinking that drives the business. As a learning strategist with a background in brand strategy and organizational design, Mary works with well-known companies to develop real-world capability, not just check-the-box training. Through keynotes and hands-on sessions, she brings practical tools, contagious curiosity, and a clear challenge to think bigger. Because in a world obsessed with tools and texts, she believes the real edge still belongs to people and how well they think.

Welcome again, Mary.

00:02:28 Speaker 2

I'm excited to talk about this topic.

00:02:31 Speaker 1

And we're excited to listen too. Before we dive in, dear listeners, make sure you're a true
eLearning Champion by hitting that follow button from wherever you're listening to us from.

Now, to get started with the first question, Mary, many L&D teams are great at delivering training, but few are seen as indispensable to the business. From your perspective, what does an L&D team that truly functions strategically look like?

00:03:00 Speaker 2

Primarily, the very first and biggest difference is, they know that they are more than the L&D function. They know that the reason they're there is to have a business impact. And that means they think as much as business people at solving business problems, not just delivering training, not just being expert in adult learning theory or instructional design. They really see themselves as contributing in a valuable way to the growth and success of the business. That's really paramount.

00:03:40 Speaker 1

Now, you've said that beyond compliance training, L&D is rarely seen as a business priority. Why is that and what can L&D leaders do to change it?

00:03:53 Speaker 2

Well, I think that whole mindset to step back from being that functional leader, being that expert in adult learning, being that expert in learning and development, and really thinking about what's the job of the learning and development function in the business and how can it help a company achieve its goals.

A lot of times organizations will sideline their L&D teams and say, just focus on the basics, just get us through. And they don't either invite them in for discussions about how they can help grow the business or L&D doesn't ask to come in to help grow the business. I think it's when they really are able to think about

What can we do? What is our special power? What is our special skill?

And how can we think about what the organization, whether it's a particular audience or organization-wide, what are the skills, the knowledge, and the abilities that this audience needs to have because it needs to drive behaviors or it needs to drive attitudes that really help an organization succeed?

00:05:14 Speaker 1

When you talk about building business acumen in L&D, what specific skills and habits are you referring to and why are they so critical for earning credibility with the executives?

00:05:28 Speaker 2

I don't think L&D teams really take enough time to connect with the business. You're going to hear a big theme here because I think the more business knowledge and acumen that an L&D professional develops at every level, in every position in the team, the more valuable they are going to be when they engage with their stakeholders.

And so, some really practical things that I think make sense, that I always coach my clients to do are, first of all, learn the business, learn the growth strategy. And if you don't know what it is, invite somebody in. Invite an executive to share it. If an executive hears that you really want to share how we will win this year, or what are our competitive pressures, or how we are doing in the market, if they know that you want your team to learn this, your credibility goes up, they start to look at you differently, and you have more influence. And in doing that, your team really has a bigger context. It moves from a functional or a siloed thinking to really a much more holistic and integrated perspective on the role, the contribution, the value. And you tend to show up a lot differently.

So, teach the business to your team. Make sure they understand how the business is doing. Also, I think a really critical way to learn the business is to learn your stakeholder environment.

There are different factors, different influences. There's different power lines that run through an organization, which are pretty powerful to change the direction. So, being able to understand what is important to your stakeholder, how do they win, not just so that you hold that power back, but the notion is, how can I do the work that I have in a way that helps my stakeholders win? doing that allows you to step back and start to see patterns. You begin to see patterns that no one else can see because they're not doing these interviews. They're not asking these kinds of questions. You're able to say, oh, I'm seeing some synergies, this group has a problem, and this group has a problem that’s kind of similar. What if we brought our L&D function to work on eliminating that challenge or helping people learn something? So, there's a lot of ability to see that connectedness and to build that business acumen simply by doing stakeholder interviews, which everybody should.

00:08:16 Speaker 1

Yes, stakeholder interviews is something that L&D team should look at. Now, you describe L&D's role as shifting from order taker to thought partner. Could you share a practical example of how an L&D leader can make that shift in a conversation with a stakeholder?

00:08:40 Speaker 2

It's a great question. There is a lot more sensitivity. I think there's today a lot more awareness that L&D leaders want to be at the strategic table. They want to have a voice. They want to be seen as a strategic function. But a lot of times they don't really know how to make that shift.

The idea of using stakeholder interviews to begin that process and to begin to show up more strategically is critical. So, I think a lot of L&D leaders go, yeah, we already do stakeholder interviews, we know how to do that, we do that all the time. And when we get somebody coming to us and they have a need, we know how to do that discovery, we know how to do that interview.

I'm talking about something else. I'm not really talking about what the stakeholder might offer as a presenting need or as a presenting challenge. It's really when the L&D leader or the L&D professional shows up in that conversation and starts to ask questions that are out of the L&D lane, that are proactive questions.

What sort of things is your team on the hook for this year?

That might take that leader aback. They might be like, well, why are you asking that? I just asked you for a training program. Why does this have to do with anything?

Just really saying, I just really want to make certain that I'm understanding the context of how this project can help you be successful so that I think about it at its highest level. And I'm considering other ways that it can help you win.

I think that kind of dialogue, those kinds of conversation really help an L&D leader show up as much more strategic. It moves the function, and it moves the credibility. And frankly, it moves the results forward because the subset is larger.

The idea is not just this one program, but generally let me be thinking all the time about your needs, stakeholder. I really want to consider how else could we change how we're doing something to help you win.

So that kind of approach really helps create that credibility, create that better positioning of L&D as a strategic function.

00:11:10 Speaker 1

You emphasize aligning to what the business is really solving. What questions should L&D professionals be asking to uncover those real business needs?

00:11:22 Speaker 2

Yeah, that is so important. We can wind up working furiously and dedicatedly on a problem that really doesn't move the needle, right? It can be something that sounds really loud and maybe people are all excited about it or maybe it's the new thing. We all know about the new thing that rolls out every 30 days, the fashionable thing.

When I talk about the problems to solve, I think it's really important that L&D leaders dig a little deeper and ask a few questions that can really help uncover what's important.

We often get engaged when there's a need that's identified, when I already think I know what the answer is and it happens to be training and you're going to do your training thing for me. But I think in those engagements, I think questions like, how does this problem show up and what's the impact?

And getting the stakeholder to really talk about the context of the problem that they're thinking training is a solution. It may be, but being more of a thought partner in that way.

Well, if you didn't solve that, what would you do? If you weren't able to solve it, how would your team cope?

Or if I were to take a look at the ultimate ideal behavior and attitude, describe that for me.

It's a lot more nuanced than just saying what does success look like? Or if you could wave a magic wand, what would you have?

We've all tried those questions, but I think it's really trying to get some creative thinking out of your stakeholder and getting them to really examine the severity of the issue, what they really are trying to accomplish at the biggest level with that change or with that project, and how it helps them. You might even find that they're like, well, I don't know, nothing really will happen. at the very worst, if we couldn't get this, we just probably keep doing it the way that we're doing it.

And then you might be able to ask, well, if you were investing in three different things, would this be one of those things that you would invest in? So really helping them see how this might stack up in a priority way for them as well as for you.

So, some questions that really are a little bit more provocative and drive thinking, they help you position yourself as a thought partner. And everybody loves to find a great thought partner in your organization, right?

Oh, let me bounce some ideas off of you or let me like pick your brain.

If you're one of those people that's asked that or if people come to you and say, I just want to get your thoughts on something, chances are you're asking probably pretty good questions and you're giving other people a chance to grow how they are thinking and the level that they're thinking at.

00:14:38 Speaker 1

Many leaders report their L&D success through participation and completion rates. What's the risk in doing that and how should L&D leaders rethink how they measure and report the impact?

00:14:54 Speaker 2

Yeah, we believe in metrics. I don't think there's a single L&D professional who isn't very aware that they need to show metrics and they need to show data.

And we often think that if we just say that we use data and we're showing data, then we must be very analytical or we're paying attention to the right things.

But the fact is not all the same data resonates with business leaders. A lot of the data that functions track are functional data. And L&D is one of those. So, we take a look at measures like Kirkpatrick measures, right? We know that in adult learning theory, those are really important. We know that those give us feedback, and they give us perspective on:

• Is adult learning happening?
• Is our program designed in a way that is optimal?

It's a very internal siloed look, very valuable data, very valuable measures. But those are not the measures that L&D leaders should be putting out there, and certainly not discussing those kinds of measures with executives.

We might talk also about another siloed or functional measure that we often hear when we're talking about L&D functions, the percentage of usage, the kind of usability, how many people are using the learning systems, or how many people came to class, or how many people did we put through this training program?

We think that the bigger the number, the more the value that we are bringing to the organization. That really confuses activity with impact.

When I work with executives who say, how can we rethink our L&D function in such a way we can see and we can imagine its value to the business, I immediately say, well, let's just talk about business measures. Let's talk about outcomes and impacts from the training that we deliver or from the development programs we deliver.

One of those easy ways to do that is in the descriptions of your classes. So, you might put together, let's just say, presentation skills course. And you might talk about in the description. Here are all the topics you're going to learn, here are the learning objectives we're going to hit. That sounds pretty thorough. But to matter to the business, what you may want to say is, this will help people show up more confidently. This will increase reputation in client-facing situations. This will help you influence important decisions.

All of those kinds of things are examples of business impacts, and you're describing the business value and the impact of the program, rather than just talking about the intellectual journey that you might go on as a participant. That's one way.

Another way is to take a look down the line at what you think the impacts are. For example, if you are involved in sales training or product launch training or customer training, maybe you work for a company that launches a new product and your job is to help prepare the various audiences for it, customer service, sales, customers.

You might talk about reduction in support calls, you might talk about time to adoption. You might talk about time to market reduction, you might talk about sales effectiveness.

All of those things are what will perk up business leaders' ears way more than either the Kirkpatrick measures or the number of people that went through the program. They don't care. They care about how you are helping me in the business.

You can do that from HR, like retention or engagement or satisfaction, right?

The other thing I think that people might struggle. They're like, I don't really know. I don't really know if I know how to measure those things, so how am I going to do that? That can be very difficult. Plus, they're lagging indicators. They only happen after you've built the program, invested in the program, designed and delivered the program.

There is a way that I always like to position learning and development programs proactively with my stakeholders, which will help me get funding, which will help me get resources, which will help me get visibility.

And that is to project and to say, we anticipate this is going to reduce time to market.

We're looking at the key behaviors for customer adoption and we are designing those into the learning program.

So, you're showing them how you're intentionally bringing the intended business outcomes and designing the learning experiences to deliver that. There is nothing that drives more credibility and it looks like magic from the outside in, Really? You can do that?

They have this misconception that the product is really hard to use. So, we're going to take that right on and we're going to design in here some really simple shortcuts that we think that people should know, to reinforce the idea of how easy it is to use.

Just talking about that, even before you develop the training, will give you that huge credibility. Then you'll have that impact if you're following intentional design, and you'll be able to have those measures at the end of it.

00:21:16 Speaker 1

Right. Might look such a small thing to do, but it can really take the impact to another level.

00:21:26 Speaker 2

Imagine the conversation you'd have with your stakeholders about the intended business impact of the program versus the learning objectives or versus the topics that you teach.

What is going to get their engagement buy in and investment? Because ultimately, what you're looking for is that support and that investment so that at the end of the year, you're looking for budget, you're looking for resources.

They're going to say, no, this has really been important to our success. We need to keep funding it, this is strategic.

00:22:00 Speaker 1

Now, talking about the new thing, AI. The business climate is shifting fast. There's AI, there's market pressures and economic uncertainty. What are some signs that an L&D team has a strategic thinking gap, and how does closing that gap help them become more resilient?

00:22:21 Speaker 2

First of all, if you are looking at your team and you're thinking, Okay, we don't have time to think, we got to get so much stuff done. That is a strategic thing to get, right?

So, if you are constantly in the reactive mode, in the receiving mode, in the responding mode, in the service mentality, chances are you are not thinking strategically. I often hear well, how are we going to get there, if I've got so much to do and I've got so much workload, how am I ever going to swim to the top or carve out time for myself so I can really think strategically?

And I always say, let's just take a look at what is on your plate.

How are you prioritizing?

How are you looking at the business impact of the things that you're accepting?

Are you pushing back?

Are you asking those bigger questions like, what would be the impact of solving this problem for every order you're receiving and being able to say, okay, we're going to prioritize where we're going to be able to align our resources and where we're not going to be able to invest our resources. We're going to be able to think about the business impact of the things that arrive and bring to the top and prioritize those things that make the biggest difference.

I think teams that are constantly reacting are not looking at root causes. So, if you don't have the bandwidth, probably there's some system in the way that you work, in the way that your team is organized to work on things, to deliver service, to contribute, there's something about that system that isn't allowing you to be efficient.

Maybe you haven't asked some root cause questions.

Maybe you haven't asked, well, what if we didn't have to do this process?

Maybe the process that we think is best practice, what if that wasn't the best practice?

What if we totally didn't do this anymore?

So, these are some questions that certainly teams and leaders can ask themselves that really help to open up that space, to give them a more strategic perspective, and to allow them to play a different role, at a different level.

00:24:57 Speaker 1

You run a program called the Strategic Playground to build strategic thinking skills. How do those skills change the way L&D teams approach their work?

00:25:09 Speaker 2

I think that strategic thinking is for everyone. We often don't hear about inviting people who are outside the executive office to participate strategically. So, in the program Strategic Playground, we take those strategic planning methodologies and frameworks and repurpose them into applying to how we can think better.

So, we're not necessarily doing strategic planning. That is not the point. The point is, how do we take and think more creatively, think about a challenge that's in our face every single day in a fresh way?

Can we ask different questions that go, I really never thought about it that way?

Or maybe it's not the reason that I always thought it was.

Or maybe there's a bias or an assumption or a paradigm shift that I need to make that will enable me to see opportunities and be much more creative in how I approach work.

I think L&D teams, because they are one of the teams that is the least resource in an organization, in particular in B2B, they are often supporting large teams and there's a handful at best, often one or two, right? They're not necessarily feeling that they have the permission to step off of that hamster wheel.

So, the strategic playground, introduces question frameworks, problem analysis and problem-solving tools that give a fresh perspective.

I think the most important thing that the Strategic Playground Program does is it helps you blow your own mind. It helps you challenge your own thinking. It makes you aware of those things that you put in front of yourself that hold you back from thinking bigger and better.

And that is what I really want to leave. I want people to get out of their own way. I hate it when I'm in my own way. And I'm always delighted when I find something that I haven't thought of, like, oh, I've been thinking like this, I should have been thinking about it differently the whole time.

So, when I can get out of my own way, I feel so empowered and so excited about the potential for my impact. And that's what I think the Strategic Playground is really designed to do.

00:27:52 Speaker 1

That's nice to hear. And it quite relates to an out-of-box thinking procedure.

00:27:58 Speaker 2

Yeah, we're in a box. The box might get bigger, the box might move over there. But we always need to know, is this box big enough to contain the potential for impact that I can have on an organization or wherever I'm working?

So, you're right. It's out-of-the-box thinking.

00:28:21 Speaker 1

One of the points is that economic needs drive investments in training. How can L&D leaders translate their initiatives into language and outcomes that matter the most to decision makers?

00:28:37 Speaker 2

I think a really good technique is to use some of those ways of talking about the programs that you have a little bit differently, either the ones that you have planned to design or the ones that maybe you already offer.

You might have some standing programming already available to an organization.

First of all, use that language of business. Take a look at what's in your course catalog.

Take a look at what's being offered and rewrite them by imagining the impact that could have either on a team, on customers, on their individual productivity and performance.

Really call those out in the descriptions in your course catalog. That's one way.

The other is the language of data and measures we talked about. Talk about the reduction in time to effectiveness in your onboarding program. Be able to measure that. Set a goal and say, we've asked people in this function, and they say it takes a good six months to get confident and effective in your role. If you can design a program that cuts that in half, you have a 50% accelerator to effectiveness for an employee.

Those kinds of discussions and that kind of language is what gets executives interested. I talk a lot about executives, and you might say, well, why do we care about that?

The executives are how we have access to resources, to budgets, to headcounts, and to the kinds of projects that we work on.

When we talk about compliance, a lot of times, it's very easy. L&D will take care of that requirements training, the compliance training, the safety training.

All of that's important. But if you want to get involved in building learning and development programs that really move the needle for the organization, maybe they help upskill people, or maybe it's tied to a major company shift or strategy shift, you really have to be speaking in the language that your executives care about.

So, paying attention to language that you hear, in particular from the senior staff and
C-suite, by integrating that into the work that you're doing and seeing those connections, that's really how language can create a powerful way for you to be positioned more strategically.

00:31:33 Speaker 1

For L&D professionals who want to start tomorrow, what's one practical action they can take to start building their team's strategic acumen?

00:31:45 Speaker 2

First of all, listen to comments that they have. Like, we are just solving a lot of problems, we're not getting ahead.

Or I just got too much to do, and I don't know how to prioritize.

So first of all, recognize that there is a gap. And once you recognize that there's a strategic thinking gap, the most powerful thing you can do as a leader is to help your team learn the business.

So those opportunities to invite executives in to share the growth plan, share the strategy, teach the strategy, bring that strategy back to every meeting, and make sure you're seeing the connection. and the alignment of the projects and the initiatives that you have with the business strategy and where growth exists, that's a really important one.

The second really easy one, or maybe this is the third, is use that stakeholder interview opportunity. Take and assign stakeholder interviews to your team.

Say, okay, Janice, you are going to go and meet with Josh, the VP of operations. You're going to learn about what he’s trying to accomplish this year. What are some of the barriers that he's facing to success? How does he win? What's he evaluated on? If he could make one change in terms of how his team is performing, where would that be? What would that look like?

I want you to come back and tell me what keeps him up at night and then we can brainstorm how we can help solve this problem. Is there a way that the way we're doing this work can shift so that we can make him more successful?

So, I think assigning and then bringing back that information and discussing it as a team, that's critical.

A third one is go to these industry events. Go to, for example, the ATD National Conference. If you're in the software industry, go to something that relates to the future trends where's the workforce going to have to build some new skills. Know that. Start talking about that, right? So doing proactive research into the future direction of your company or your industry and tying that back to the skills you need is critical.

So not only have someone do that or expect your team to do that, but bring that back to the conversation. Bring that back and talk about, well, what would that mean for us?

What would we have to do differently? What will we have to prioritize?

And have your team start thinking about that future. So those are some really straightforward ways they maybe they feel like, Wow, I don't know if we could do that because we don't do that. But they are very small things that make a huge difference and elevate the conversation and the thinking in your team.

00:35:00 Speaker 1

And that brings us to the end of another insightful episode of the eLearning Champion Podcast. We've covered a lot today, from how to take small steps to big wins, changing our language, stakeholder interviews, and so much more. I'm sure our listeners are walking away with some fresh ideas and actionable steps. Thank you so much, Mary, for sharing your thoughts, insights, and suggestions.

00:35:27 Speaker 2

Thank you. I'm so grateful to get to talk about this topic that I care so much about.

00:35:35 Speaker 1

Now, dear listeners, we've got more fantastic episodes lined up featuring incredible guests like Mary, tackling the topics that matter the most to you. You can find us on your favorite social media platforms. Don't forget to follow us from wherever you're listening in to us from. Thank you so much for tuning in to the eLearning Champion Podcast. Until next time, take care and happy learning.